Comments on: wherein I wonder about the meaning of masculinity

By: coffee, masculinity, and the joys of being friends with boys | Cleavage by Kelly Diels.

Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:06:14 +0000

[...] That sounds like true lies. Like a cartoon of masculinity, babe. How do you explain fatherhood? Or friendship? We’re friends and I’m not fucking [...]

By: Nathan Hangen

Nathan Hangen — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:26:55 +0000

I hate to sell my gender out like this, but I think that most masculinity is rooted in insecurity. Not in all cases, but in many.

Sure, there are those moments when I want nothing more than to do something manly (like drink a beer and play fight club), but that’s not a frequent experience.

Men are also confused by what women want from them, and I’d argue that in this world of “transparency and authenticity,” that it’s even tougher.

We wind up being split in two and unsure of our true nature. Could be I’m just talking out my ass, maybe you can help me figure it out

By: Basu

Basu — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:37:20 +0000

So basically what you’re saying is that the ‘good’ Alpha male is Batman. Right? Or has watching three Batman movies in a row affected me somehow?

By: Kelly Diels

Kelly Diels — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:02:34 +0000

@Prahlad, yes.

I think the right place to start is with our natures, our basic humanity. Of course all of that gets filtered through biochemistry and socialization and expectations and so on…but we’re acquisitive. It is a necessity, really. At the same time, of course we’re cooperative. We exist in a spectrum between self-centred, acquisitive, power/status-acquiring and altruistic, cooperative, and loving. All of us. No gender has (or should have) a monopoly on any of these qualities.

Of course, what we instinctually display, and choose to exaggerate is really where the story is.

By: Kelly Diels

Kelly Diels — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:57:35 +0000

@Leela, OH YOU GET IT. Of course that's exactly what I'm talking about. Truly, madly, deeply. Thank you for leaving this comment. YES YES YES.

By: Prahlad

Prahlad — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:45:09 +0000

> KD wrote: “Masculinity is complicated”
You say? Then, is feminity kinda like… rocket science? ;-D

I think it’s a matter of “levels of evolution”.
- An “unevolved” alpha male (we can call it “wild” or “primitive”) is closer to an animal, prone to (ab)using power, intimidation, violence.
- An “evolved” alpha male tend to wisdom, inspiring leadership, strong ethic. People like Josh are – obviously – closer to this kind.

For every aspect of mankind (we might say “archetypes”), you may have an “higher”, luminous level and a “lower”, darker one (or, better yet, a continuum between these extremes)d.
And that’s true for both male and females; e.g.:
- The King (strong male archetype) can be “luminous” (King Arthur) or “dark” (Richard III)
- The Mother (strong female archetype) can be loving and nurturing, or possessive and devouring, as well.

Thinking that “men are like this, women are like that” is misleading. Good and evil live together inside the very essence of everybody, and it’s up to each individual how these potentials are expressed (or not).

Lastly, when someone act bossy, usually (s)he’s just an immature and/or insecure person, faking a strength (s)he doesn’t have, unable to relate on a peer, authentic, respectful level.
So… why bother?

> KD wrote: “those men (and some women)
aren’t inclined to share the goodies with the rest of us.”
Oh my! Humans are egoistic creatures… I’m flabbergasted! ;-D

By: Leela

Leela — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:34:02 +0000

This is a really interesting and relevant conversation. My dad was the ultimate alpha – military officer, commandent in charge of thousands of men etc. And I was very luck to see *true* masculinity modelled for me. He could be an bit of autocratic pain in the ass but he was also a man of immense integrity. Being ‘alpha’ without taking responsibility for not just your own well-being but the well-being of the people around you? Without understanding that truly being a leader means always thinking of the greater good for all? I think it is so basic I wonder how all these PUAs miss it. They all perform a pantomime of ‘alphaness’, they want the privileges but refuse to take the responsibilities. It’s a display so hollow, it’s laughable and sort of pathetic.

By: Ned White

Ned White — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:44:40 +0000

I like it! well said

By: Justin Matthews

Justin Matthews — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:23:40 +0000

@Kelly Diels, Thanks Kelly, you summed it up very well. There is a difference between BEING masculine and trying to be seen as masculine.

By: Kelly Diels

Kelly Diels — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:15:35 +0000

@Dave Doolin, exactly, exactly, exactly. My friend Arwyn introduced me to the word "kyriarchy" which, initially, I balked at but now I'm warming up to.