part 1 -I’m Not Picking On Pick Up Artists. Much.
part 1.5 – Interview With a Former Pick Up Artist.
This post is part 2 (-ish, because I stopped to do an interview along the way) of my three part essay on the Seduction Community, misogny (it isn’t all their fault! but they’re not off the hook!) and The Sex ‘n Love problem.
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The last time I wrote about the Seduction Community, I said we needed to think about two aspects of it:
The social. The Seduction Community both reflects and reifies the misogyny of our culture. In other words, that shit comes from somewhere. The Seduction Community’s (sometimes) fucked-up attitudes about women come from our society’s fucked-up attitudes about women and then – sadly, arguably – reinforces them.
The personal. Some smart but socially awkward guys just want to find a way to connect with women, get confident in their company, and maybe even get a girlfriend. And that – well that’s pretty damn sweet.
So let’s talk about something personal.
My friend told me a story from several years ago.
It is the kind of story that you can only tell several years later because if you told it in the midst of it your soul would curl up and die of embarrassment.
She got divorced (and gawd, I’m glad she did. ‘Nuff said). She packed up her stuff, hired movers, and drove across the country to come home. To us. Her friends, and family.
She told me she felt like she was coming home with her tail between her legs. When you go off on a journey, you’re supposed to come home with that coat of many colours. A career, accolades, shiny things, a shiny marriage, and maybe even some sparkly babies on parade.
And she left all of these – the house, the job, the man, the apparently-pretty life – to come home and start over.
Freedom looked and felt and smelled like failure, to her. Liberty isn’t tender and doesn’t come wrapped with pretty bows and a spoonful of sugar.
She got a job. She got her bearings. She started playing ball, again, which was fantastic because it was a summer of social engagements: baseball, barbecues, beer.
Naturally, she met a guy. That’s what happens when you’re single and you leave the house.
He was a friend of her baseball-playing friends. He was divorced with kids, a business, a house, and an easy smile. He’d been engaged, after his divorce – recently, in fact – but it didn’t work out. Still, he didn’t seem to have any barriers to a relationship. He invited her in. Instantly, she bought into the insta-family fantasy: hung out with his kids, watched movies, made popcorn, re-arranged the living room furniture, accessorized his kitchen, picked out his new backsplash. And since his friends were her friends, too, parties and group things were easy and awesome.
It was all pretty easy and awesome.
A few months later their mutual friends were getting married in Jamaica and forty of their closest friends tagged along for seven days.
The first five days were fantastic: sun, sand, super-hot-sex.
Then, at the reception, in the midst of the speeches, he abruptly excused himself to make a call.
That call took two hours.
People were looking for him. His friends were irritated and kept asking her: what’s up? Where’d he go? He’s missing the wedding. Isn’t that why he’s here?
When he returned, hours later, she was worried. She asked him: were you talking to your kids? Is everything ok at home?
He snapped at her: I had to make a call.
Everyone else who asked got the same pissy reply: I had to make a call.
The next day was weird – he didn’t seem to want to talk to her or be near her.
She thought, okay, we’ve been together 24-7 (less disappearances for mystery phone calls) for nearly a week; we’re tired of each other. No biggie.
The last day, he said he wanted to go into town to go shopping. She wanted to lie on the beach but thought, ok, let’s do that, instead.
Two hours into their day – and two hours away from their hotel – he said, you know, I kind of wanted to spend the day by myself.
Whoakay.
And then there was the plane ride home. They were three to a row: her, him, their mutual friend J.
She’d say something and he’d look out the window. J would look at her, with a WTF eyebrow raise, and she’d shrug. Seven days together. Maybe a little space would help.
In front of the airport, the big group divided into small groups. One group was going home – they all lived in the same area – in a limo; the others were going home in their cars. He called out a general “ok, see ya everyone, great trip!” and got in the back of the limo.
Without her.
She stood on the sidewalk in front of the airport with her suitcases, her suntan, and her shock.
His best friend since childhood was shocked, too.
Did that just happen? Did he really just leave you here?
Yes. Yes he did.
~
So his friend and his friend’s wife took her home, hung out with her, and fed her Chinese food.
The next day, he unfriended her on facebook. And didn’t call again.
Days later, his former-fiancee moved in with him.
~
Stupid is stupid. Weak character is weak character. Narcissism is narcissism. This stuff follows you, because it is you.
~
So that’s the thing. This is why I’m not eviscerating the seduction community.
Seduction techniques – like money, fame, power, beauty – just amplify what and who you already are.
If you are an asshole then you will use PUA techniques to be a bit more of an asshole because that is what you are. An asshole.
This is just popeye wisdom: ‘yam what I ‘yam.
If, however, you are a basically good-hearted lusty lad who is a touch socially awkward, then you will use seduction techniques to be a basically good-hearted lusty lad who is less socially awkward – and hopefully you won’t absorb the misogyny along the way.
(Although I’m not convinced, entirely, that this is possible).
A friend of mine who might know a lil’ something about The Community told me that in his experience most guys last three weeks: they start rocking the script, have some success and end up with a girlfriend right away.
Our Anonymous Source said the same thing: most guys start studying this stuff because they want a nice girlfriend.
~
All of this is to say that – hopefully, hopefully, hopefully – we’re all trying to get the same thing.
Together.
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that’s me playing nice. There’s more to come, and it isn’t all gumdrops and buttercups.
but please play nice in the comments. Andrew’s getting tired.
One thing I don’t like about “seductionism” even when used for good is that it appears to speed up the whole process, which leads to unsatisfying relationships.
I have two female friends at the moment who are dying for a boyfriend. Both of them are very sweet, and also not afraid of their sexuality. The problem happens when they try to put together a “potential relationship” with each guy they interact with. Either the interaction quickly goes nowhere for lack of immediate flashy chemistry, or they fall headlong into infatuation and get physically intimate very quickly, before any mental intimacy has really had a chance to lay down roots.
This is not how you form a good relationship.
We have this conception of love as being something you just “fall into.” And yes, there is nothing like being in love. But love is like fire: it’s awesome to let it burn bright, especially if it’s been a while, but it often goes out of control and badly burns you along the way. Put away that lighter fluid can, and take it slower. Real seduction is not a technique, but a state of mind, and one that, while it piques your curiosity, does not leave you feeling empty and allows for a full intimate interaction, regardless of what happens next.
[Reply]
Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 5:38 pm
@Positive Mitch,
“Real seduction is not a technique, but a state of mind, and one that, while it piques your curiosity, does not leave you feeling empty …”
yes, yes and yes.
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I can so relate to your friend, Kelly. I am looking back over a past relationship with new eyes and see where I made the same mistakes as in previous relationships. I need to get my head on straight to prevent it from happening again. We get what we go looking for, even if we are not sure what that is.
[Reply]
Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 5:40 pm
@Nicki, I’m in a pretty similar place – I’ve decided that I’m not getting into anything until I’m sure what I want and can act like an adult.
[Reply]
Positive Mitch
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 7:13 pm
@Kelly Diels, good idea and good of you to notice that. I think I will give this advice to my friends.
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The guy obviously isn’t aware of the truth that there is a reason that exes are exes. It will inevitably not work out and he will probably want your friend back, in which case I hope she remembers that there’s a reason that exes are exes. At least one concrete reason that it didn’t work out before.
Men treat us the way we allow them to. There are so many other things to be heartbroken over. We should use our tears wisely.
[Reply]
Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 5:41 pm
@Christina Majaski, you’ve got great instincts…there’s more to this story and I’ll write about in the next instalment.
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Also bear in mind that if a person is a “good” person liking to help others, nice personality, non-challenging, etc., they will tend to attract those whose sole purpose is to drag them down so they are not a “threat” to them.
Fortunately there’s only a couple percentage of them floating around; just keep an eye out for them.
[Reply]
Prahlad
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 9:57 am
@Bruce H. Johnson, I think it’s quite the opposite.
Because of “law of affinity” (and I think more to Goethe’s than LoA), and for psychological (unconsciuos) perceptions, we tend to pick people in tune with our “inner world” (and beliefs).
A really “positive” person and an “evil” one, will tend to ignore each other, having very different “vibrations”.
[Reply]
I wonder… would it make any difference, if the genders in the (sad) story above were reversed?
I mean… shit happens. People do bad things. ANY kind of people, any gender.
Is it men…? Is it women…? Or is it, just, human weaknesses?
But, it’s SOOOO easy to blame and point fingers and think “It’s your/their fault!”.
Thinking WE are okay, and the opposite sex is the only one to blame.
I believe this is a very myopic attitude.
[Reply]
MDTaz
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 10:34 am
@Prahlad, I think it would make no difference. If this story had been told about a woman who ditched a man so coldly and abruptly, it would be equally troubling.
Maybe we cannot judge the guy for his decision — we don’t know his side of the story and possibly he loved the ex-girlfriend so much that the call with her immediately changed his feeling for the new girlfriend (Kelly’s friend). I can’t fault him his preference, though I’m suspect of it, especially in the context of Kelly’s recent musings. If he really hadn’t cut the cord with her, maybe he ought to have been a bit more upfront with his new girlfriend. This decision shouldn’t have surprised her. The fact that it was such a surprise, this is where I say shame on him.
The most unconscionable part of this story, to me, is the way he flipped the switch and just went so cool, so fast, so harshly. I’ve been dumped before for an ex, but at least I was given the dignity of a discussion, an explanation, some context. At least I had signs, honest admissions along the way that the previous relationship still had some sting to it. At least the ultimate uncoupling was a process and not a decision made secretly and summarily by one cowardly person.
[Reply]
Prahlad
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 2:56 pm
@MDTaz, I totally agree about the horrible behaviour that guy had, disappearing coldly like that. That’s plain simply inexcusable.
Still, the way Kelly told the story, gave to me the sensation of “Men are like that!”. It sounded “sexist”. That’s why I thought about the swapped genders (I saw women disappearing without explanations, too).
And – IMHO – the story had nothing to do with PUA.
[Reply]
Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 5:43 pm
@Prahlad, that story wasn’t necessarily about gender. It was about fuckwittery. My point was that people are who they are, no matter what fancy techniques they use, or don’t use. The genders could have been reversed, as you pointed out, because the point remains the same: a jerk is a jerk is a jerk.
[Reply]
Well, that guys a dick.
Guys shouldn’t play Big Boy games unless they are willing to play by Big Boy rules.
[Reply]
Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 5:43 pm
@Deacon, hear hear.
[Reply]
Dave Doolin
replied:
on March 3rd, 2010 at 11:05 am
@Deacon, dudes like this ain’t got the nads to run with the Big Dogs.
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Well Kelly, you supplied a good chunk of our dinner party conversation last night. Three men, their three wives/fiances/girlfriends and one woman there without her husband all got stuck into a conversation about seduction techniques.
One aspect that came out from the men was a sense that this whole business is preying on/exploiting insecure men, making money off guys who believe they are not attractive enough.
I wonder whether New Zealanders are more naturally suspicious of anything like this (several people in the room wondered aloud whether this was the Landmark for desperate men). In any case, it makes me wonder whether even the personal aspect of all this is really ‘pretty damn sweet’. Maybe the Seduction Community leaders are working their own “neg hit” on their punters?
By the way, I’ve been dumped unceremoniously as well. He left on a trip to the US that I had helped make happen, a sponsored research trip. I never heard from him again. Once I had confirmed through a mutual friend that he was indeed alive and had made it back safely, I realised he simply hadn’t had the balls to break up with me. He also had gone back to an ex. It was f$#king horrible at the time. In retrospect it seems almost laughable.
[Reply]
Prahlad
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 3:08 pm
@Marianne, yes, I think that – most of the times – the “ghosts” (partners vanishing without the slightest notice) are just weak people unable to be honest and telling you the truth. Eons ago, I was one of them.
If I may dare to say so, you’re lucky that you “lost” such a kind of boyfriend. ;-D
[Reply]
Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 5:44 pm
@Prahlad, what a great way to put it: “ghosts”. I like that a lot.
[Reply]
That is one crazy story! I am so glad your friend got away from that guy – it sounds like she is far too good for him.
Perhaps her semi-life-crisis divorce, moving home etc clouded her judgement?
Thanks for sharing, highly entertaining and interesting as always.
[Reply]
Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 2nd, 2010 at 5:48 pm
@Shannon O | Confessions of a Loving Wife, I’m not sure her judgement was clouded. It was such an abrupt end – how could she have predicted that? Maybe her judgement wasn’t clouded so much as rushed. And I know I do that, too – rush in.
Danielle LaPorte wrote something today about business that is a wise practice for any relationship: “optimism and incremental commitment.”
[Reply]
Brilliant! Yes, people are people are people. We can’t ever run away from ourselves or our problems, even if we try to pretent our problems are embodied by someone else. How many times have I seen my friends (or have I myself) gotten into the same relationship over and over? We either grow up and learn or lessons or we repeat our mistakes.
That’s why I think framing the seduction techniques as “personal development” is a bunch of bullshit. I can’t believe that that those techniques can really, truly increase one’s confidence. I think that’s a load of…. wishful thinking.
[Reply]
Kelly, very interesting article series here.
I wanted to share my story quickly.
I “joined” this community nearly 6 years ago. I was lonely, and was not very good at engaging women in conversation. Most women considered me a “nice guy” but I wasn’t getting anywhere – I hadn’t had a serious girlfriend in 5 years.
The first time I used the “techniques” on a woman I got the date. That date and “techniques” turned into:
-my best friend
-3 years of marriage
-the most beautiful little girl a father could ever ask for
For me, the program did exactly what I wanted it to.
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