After I published part 1 (I’m Not Picking on Pick Up Artists. Much) of my essay on The Seduction Community, a guy got in touch with me. He used to study pick up and he had lots to say about it.
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The Seduction Community made me socially awkward. I’m not socially awkward. I’m extroverted, friendly, comfortable with people. Still, I didn’t have a girlfriend until I was 25. I got in it because I wanted a girlfriend, and I got a girlfriend, fast.
I went in it wanting a girlfriend, and I got one, but once I was in it I think my expectations changed a bit because I realized other things were possible and that maybe I could have a lot of women.
The biggest thing I learned – from studying this stuff, and spending time with these guys, and then getting disillusioned with it – is that whatever your issue is, it isn’t with women. The issue is with you.
I had no issues with women. I had issues with me.
I wanted to fix that – and the truth is, most of the guys in the community are genuinely good guys trying to fix shit in their life. It really is nothing more than personal development disguised as pick up. Half these guys, though, are just painful to be around. Not just with girls. With everyone.
Honestly, I don’t know how the gurus teach this stuff. It has to be draining, like being a therapist and all day, day after day, you’re listening to people tell you how fucked up their lives are.
And some of the people who teach this shit? Some of the teachers are genuinely good guys and want to help people but lots of them are just a whole ‘nother level of fucked up.
I spent a weekend at Project Hollywood with Style (Neil Strauss) and Mystery and I can tell you that my biggest problem with these guys – outside of Neil Strauss, who’s really funny and cool – is that they are utterly one-dimensional. All they think about talk about and do, is pickup. Every human interaction is transformed from a conversation with a person into a set or an approach. It was disturbing to me to spend three days, twenty-four/seven in a house together and leave without knowing a thing about each other beyond pick up.
Pick up is personal development, but it is the inverse of personal development, because personal development teaches you to rely on yourself, validate yourself and that everything is supposed to be easy. In pick up, though you’re trying so hard to gain someone’s approval even though you’re pretending otherwise, and that’s just the opposite of any useful kind of personal growth.
The whole thing is based on scripted, unnatural interactions that don’t lead to anything substantial.
From my experience, 70% of guys say fuck it and give up.
A small percentage of guys figure out that it is about personal development and life in general and apply the principles of persuasion and personal improvement to life…
…I can say that I think that pick up artists and porn creates barriers to real relationships. Now, I would never tell a woman I was in the community because it is too much of a risk and she’ll assume that I’m sleeping with a million women.
The biggest thing I’ve learned from the community – and this applies to all of us – is that the amount of shit that we’ll put up with because we like someone is extraordinary.
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This interview is a bit of an interlude – the original essay isn’t finished yet. I’ll be posting parts 2 and 3 this week.
If you’ve got stories and opinions to contribute, please e-mail me or let’s hear them in the comments.
thanks so much.
thanks for posting this, kelly! what an eye-opening interview. we’re all a bit fucked up, aren’t we? even those people who look like they’ve got it all together. helpful to remember when it seems like you can do nothing right…
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Kelly Diels
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on March 1st, 2010 at 5:51 pm
@tara – scoutie girl, we’re all eternally pushing rocks up the hill.
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Interesting interview. I read Strauss’ book “The Game.” What really struck me was that no matter how great these guys seemed to be a pickup, they seemed a miserable lot.
When I finished the book, I had real sympathy for Mystery. Of course, now he’s got the TV show and all, but that’s just a show. He seemed the most miserable of all of them in the book.
It seems despite the ability to pickup, some of these guys still suffer from the same insecurity that drew them to pickup in the first place.
I could be wrong, but Strauss’ book left me with that impression–intended or otherwise.
Look forward to the rest of the interview.
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Kelly Diels
replied:
on March 1st, 2010 at 5:50 pm
@Carlon, interestingly, Neil Strauss says he’s working on a version of The Game for women – about how to figure out who to trust, and not get hurt.
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“The biggest thing I’ve learned from the community – and this applies to all of us – is that the amount of shit that we’ll put up with because we like someone is extraordinary.”
hoooooooo did i learn that the hard way. least i got it out the way at 20 i guess…
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Kelly Diels
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on March 1st, 2010 at 5:50 pm
@Paddy, I re-learn this every couple of months. Alas.
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Paddy
replied:
on March 1st, 2010 at 6:07 pm
@Kelly Diels,
well i’ve been single for 3 years, might be i’ll relearn it sometime again sometime.
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I loved VH1′s The Pickup Artist AND I had a long conversation with J Dog (@askjdog-from the first season I think) about collaborating with him on his site to add some stuff from a lesbian perspective. The idea never had legs but you might want to talk to him.
From what I saw on the one season of the show I’ve seen (I’ve not done any in-depth exploration like you have) was some pretty cool stuff: teaching men to respect women, understand what they want and to practice some pretty intimidating stuff. I mean where do guys learn to approach a group of chatty wenches at a bar and what the fuck is he supposed to say? It would/does terrify me. WOMEN. WE INTIMIDATE. BIG TIME.
I have a 25 yr old single son. I worry about his sexual, dating education though, God knows my ex and I inundated him (and his stepbrother) with lesbian feminist, peace loving wisdom. He still loves to play Grand Theft Auto (and stepbrother is going into the Marines). He loves porn. So do I though it perpetually disappoints.
You are right. I love banter. I love wit. Confidence and intelligence is the sexiest thing. If you can teach a bit of both of those, and RESPECT, these ill-prepared young men have a chance at finding a great woman. GREAT.
But, then 90% of what I just wrote is crap. Kisses…
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I find it interesting, perhaps disturbing, that the interviewee keeps referring to what he’s learned as personal development while at the same time admitting that it’s all about scripted, unnatural interactions. In my opinion those two things are mutually exclusive, not one and the same.
While scripted, unnatural interactions may win over some women, some of the time, it is certainly not the basis for any kind of a lasting or genuinely intimate relationship. Yuk.
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Paddy
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on March 1st, 2010 at 6:16 pm
@Kristin, its the interpretation of the script that makes it personal development surely?
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Paddy
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on March 1st, 2010 at 6:39 pm
@Paddy, of *any* script even.
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My observations have led me to believe that pick up art focused on attracting sexual partners is dangerous and can cause many social problems for those who practice it. Pick up art that is focused on personal development (or becoming a more attractive person) is beneficial in many social activities not limited to sexual relations, allows one to become less discriminate socially and sexually, while still increasing one’s ability to attract a desired partner.
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For me, it made all the difference to stop playing games. Manipulation doesn’t lead to trust. Charismatic charmers can be oh so flattering, but the good guy who’s honest and real is way more worth it, in my opinion.
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I’m young compared to most guys involved in the pick up community, it’s spread far, as I’m from Australia, but I gotta say, as much as a lot of it is “fucked up.”
There are factions emerging I’ve noticed here in Australia, which is about being a “natural” in other words being yourself, learning to be comfortable with being interested in women, figuring out what makes you happy and going for it, and realising that you’re accountable for your situation and no one else is.
These factions are small and less mainstream, but they take a practical approach, that does everything it can not to manipulate people, esp. women.
All I’m saying is that there are guys out there teaching men “how to pick up women,” by teaching them to be comfortable, honest and confident with themselves, rather than asking them to pretend they’re someone else.
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Coming from the other side of the fence (as a “pickup” instructor), I see it like the fitness industry (or any other industry, really). That is, some people come to the fitness industry wanting to improve their lives, live healthier, and change the way they feel about themselves. But others are here to intimidate people, scam people into buying products that don’t work, and overcompensate for awful personalities with nice bodies.
Both industries have their share of great people and charlatans, good intentions and malicious ones. It’s really up to the individual to choose where he ends up.
That said, the industry has really transcended just “pickup” because “pickup” doesn’t work without certain prerequisites. Tactics don’t work without conversational skills. And techniques don’t work without the ability to NOT weird people out. There’s a whole category of basic social skills and life skills that have to be in place before any of the tactics or techniques can work. Things like having friends, a job, basic social skills, passions, etc. Even self esteem and confidence are rapidly becoming understood as things that have to be in place before a technique can work. So more and more, I’m finding myself teaching THOSE things in lieu of more traditional “pickup techniques.” And to that end, I no longer see myself as simply a dating coach. I am a PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT coach. I am a SUCCESS coach. I am a LIFE coach. And that is both what drives me and what makes me successful.
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I see the pickup community as a gateway to personal development for many people. There is definitely a cultural difference in the sections of the community and it seems like a lot of the “routine” trainers are based in areas where there is a lot of club fakery anyway.
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